Sectional density and overall weight

Youtube videos are edited to include only the good shots. Just think of the ones without jaws and other wounds.

Indeed. Yoochoob is about as accurate a reflection of real life as any reality show or sitcom.

About - "Accurate"

Perhaps referencing Bryan Litz counts as a .. "reality show or sitcom" ?

Perhaps the reality is in fact in the discernment of the watcher ?

Youtube videos are edited to include only the good shots. Just think of the ones without jaws and other wounds.

Indeed. Yoochoob is about as accurate a reflection of real life as any reality show or sitcom.

There must be a huge number of stupid and gullible people in the World then ?
A "Yoochoob" channel is a business and a lot of people make a lot of money from - "Yoochoob"

On our hunt this year the story was told of a Mr Moneybags who refused to search for a wounded kudu cow. R5000 was not a problem and he would shoot another. No sympathy for the animal's suffering.

I read this again slowly ..
YES .. STORY
I have read this one at numerous places before

Hunting "stories" are about as accurate as ..You-tube !
However what I wrote previously still stands - although the last bit about .. did anyone else follow up the wounded Kudu is perhaps not included in .. "THE STORY" ????

Youtube videos are edited to include only the good shots. Just think of the ones without jaws and other wounds. On our hunt this year the story was told of a Mr Moneybags who refused to search for a wounded kudu cow. R5000 was not a problem and he would shoot another. No sympathy for the animal's suffering.

MR Moneybags I would hesitate to suggest is NOT a real hunter
A good farmer / hunting operation would get rid of people like this quite quickly

BTW;
Did someone else go and look for the wounded Kudu ?

Indeed. Yoochoob is about as accurate a reflection of real life as any reality show or sitcom.

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like that Tim Wells arsehole.

Youtube videos are edited to include only the good shots. Just think of the ones without jaws and other wounds.

Indeed. Yoochoob is about as accurate a reflection of real life as any reality show or sitcom.

Youtube videos are edited to include only the good shots. Just think of the ones without jaws and other wounds. On our hunt this year the story was told of a Mr Moneybags who refused to search for a wounded kudu cow. R5000 was not a problem and he would shoot another. No sympathy for the animal's suffering.

I see no-one noticed the ... SMILEYS
But anyway
There is a guy that has a popular YouTube channel that posts hunting videos where head shots are the norm.
You are welcome to watch the videos and then direct your comments his way

wankers and show offs , keyboard ninjas and bar bullshitters.

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, its not like that time I shot the running springbuck behind the shoulders at 700 m freehand, you know its true because I didn't try bullshit ya all with a headshot story.

Wankers and show offs mainly.

. . . . and keyboard ninjas and bar bullshitters.

Shoot the animal in the head .. no meat damage and bullet type incidental and academic !
??? :) :)

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Headshots - wankers and show offs.

The real headshot capable guys, you do not hear of them - professionals mostly, and even they when hunting not for business still shoot behind shoulder fo sport hunting.
Wankers and show offs mainly.

Shoot the animal in the head .. no meat damage and bullet type incidental and academic !
??? :) :)

Some questions !
1 - What is the optimum speed for soft point bullet use ? Even a 180gr cup/core bullet out of a 303 at 2400fps causes meat damage. Shooting at a slower speed limits your effective range
2 - Same question a bit too the side, what is the optimum speed for penetration. Depending on bullet type you might find a slower bullet giving better penetration
3 - Then,at what speed does peripheral meat damage start occurring ? Above about 2500fps meat damage increases a lot
4 - Do pointed bullets do less meat damage than round or flat bullet tips ? The more lead exposed the quicker the bullet expands if it is an expanding bullet
5 - Does a bullet that enters and exits cause less meat damage than one that dumps all its energy into target? Theoretically it should as that energy component is what creates more meat damage
6 - Does a bullet that stays together in a clean mushroom do less peripheral meat damage than one that breaks into, say 3 parts, not a bullet that fragments ? It could cause less yes, but a longer bullet path might mean damaging both lungs and not just one

Some questions !
1 - What is the optimum speed for soft point bullet use ?
2 - Same question a bit too the side, what is the optimum speed for penetration.
3 - Then,at what speed does peripheral meat damage start occurring ?
4 - Do pointed bullets do less meat damage than round or flat bullet tips ?
5 - Does a bullet that enters and exits cause less meat damage than one that dumps all its energy into target?
6 - Does a bullet that stays together in a clean mushroom do less peripheral meat damage than one that breaks into, say
3 parts, not a bullet that fragments ?

In the early years they were the only smokeless powder rounds.

Remember when these cartridges came into being - they were the best there was at the time.

In the Rigby 7x57mm he used round nose 173 grain FMJ bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2,300 fps and in the.303 British the military round nose 215 grain FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 2,100 fps: both of which he described as being about ideal for the job they were called on to do.

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Look at the increase in weight between the 7 and the .303 and then the decrease in velocity to do same job apparently pretty equally.
I keep coming back to the old statement about terminal ballistics. Double the weight to double the energy, double the speed to quadruple the energy - or percentages of such increases.

In the Rigby 7x57mm he used round nose 173 grain FMJ bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2,300 fps and in the.303 British the military round nose 215 grain FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 2,100 fps: both of which he described as being about ideal for the job they were called on to do.

I think that this is the one you are looking for

Bell used German DWM 7x57 ammo 175gr round nose FMJ

7X57 MAUSER SILVER BULLET DWM 1913

Source for 7mm Solids

No idea where you would get round nose solid FMJ bullets today ?

Still you can get these ..

11,7 g / 180 gr Scenar-L OTM GB554

Perhaps not so good for Elephant ?

BTW ;
7x57 is not normally considered a slow heavy round
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Jaaaaaaaaaaa Newton, this may be the part I got wrong, dunno why, but somewhere in my past the 7x57 became embedded as "slow and heavy"
Some conversation somewherelong ago, stored incorrectly.

Chat on bullet performance by Ron Spomer.

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The bottom line is I just want to know if my 7x57 shooting a 170 gr bullet will be a better penetrating rifle than my .270 shooting a 150 gr bullet or my .308 shooting a 165 gr bullet.
I wanted a slow and heavy rifle for big time penetration and bought the 7x57 for that, but then saw the SD of the .270 150 gr bullet was right up there past and with the 7x57 bullets and I wondered if the 7x57 was that much of a better penetrator than the .270
That lead to this post.

Simple enough - after all the speculation
You have both rifles - run the real world tests ..
Depending on the type of 7x57 rifle you have and it's age - and chamber ( short throat ?}
You may be able to load it to similar velocities to the 270 ( 6.858mm )

BTW ;
7x57 is not normally considered a slow heavy round

Standard industry loadings for the 7x57 are on the low side due to concerns with very old weapons ( small ring Mausers from before 1900 )

See SAAMI CIP data with max pressure ( will download a PDF file )

C.I.P. Homologation 7x57

CIP Pmax pressure 3,900 BAR = 56.565 PSI ( say 57,000 psi ) SAAMI is 51,000psi

Walter Maitland Dalrymple Bell used a 275 RIGBY ( same thing )

Here is a whole lot about him , his rifles , and the type of bullet he used

WDM Bell & His Elephant Hunting Rifles

Speaking personally, my greatest successes have been obtained with the 7 mm. Rigby-Mauser or .276, with the old round-nosed solid, weighing, I believe, 200 grs. It seemed to show a remarkable aptitude for finding the brain of an elephant. This holding of a true course I think is due to the moderate velocity, 2,300 ft., and to the fact that the proportion of diameter to length of bullet seems to be the ideal combination. For when you come below .276 to .256 or 6-5 mm., I found a bending of the bullet took place when fired into heavy bones.

“Karamojo” Bell on Rifles: In His Own Words

When archive.org is up again you may be able to find his books

Treeman may find some of his answers in the above ?

Momentum (speed x weight) plays a big role in penetration. I can remember a picture showing a 300gr (375HH) solid in an oak board. It penetrated 57 inches. I doubt if a 170gr bullet out of a 270 will be able to do the same. Projectile choice and makeup will play a big role in penetration. A 416 Rigby outperforms a 458 Win with penetration. This calibre and bigger seems to be where the larger bore creates more resistance due to frontal area increase.

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Yes it was a .458 problem which led to the 458 Lott being developed. The bottom line is I just want to know if my 7x57 shooting a 170 gr bullet will be a better penetrating rifle than my .270 shooting a 150 gr bullet or my .308 shooting a 165 gr bullet.
I wanted a slow and heavy rifle for big time penetration and bought the 7x57 for that, but then saw the SD of the .270 150 gr bullet was right up there past and with the 7x57 bullets and I wondered if the 7x57 was that much of a better penetrator than the .270
That lead to this post.

Momentum (speed x weight) plays a big role in penetration. I can remember a picture showing a 300gr (375HH) solid in an oak board. It penetrated 57 inches. I doubt if a 170gr bullet out of a 270 will be able to do the same. Projectile choice and makeup will play a big role in penetration. A 416 Rigby outperforms a 458 Win with penetration. This calibre and bigger seems to be where the larger bore creates more resistance due to frontal area increase.

Well, here is my take.

It depends on how much material has to be moved out the way and how fast it has to move out the way.

A small diameter bullet will out penetrate a larger diameter bullet at the same velocity and SD just because the larger diameter bullet has to push more material out the way.

Generally, it should be the case, but not always. Bullet speed, bullet construction,target medium etc play a role.

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Ya - not interested in all the construction, medium etc just same same same, just wanna know if a 458 shoots deeper than a smaller caliber because of weight. a 180 gr .270 bullet will have a SD of "huge" , but will it out penetrate a .375 standard weight bullet into an elephant body.

The 7x57 built its reputation for penetration due to Kalamojo Bell who used it on elephant.

But ... he dissected elephant skulls to understand his shot placement, and he shot from very close up - 15m or so. And he used those long, solid bullets at a moderate speed compared to what we can do now.

Generally, it should be the case, but not always. Bullet speed, bullet construction,target medium etc play a role.

That's the point. It isn't a one factor thing. There are more variables at play than we can probably guess. At best you can probably say that heavier bullets tend to penetrate more deeply than lighter ones into the same tsrgets

So if you look at it this way. All metal spheres have the same SD. If you drop a 1kg sphere or a 1g sphere from the same height onto a plank of wood, they will impact at the same speed, but the 1kg metal sphere will do a lot more damage because it has a lot more energy to act on the wood. Hence a heavier bullet will do the same to the meat.

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THATS WHAT I WANTED _ NEEDED, could not format that myself. So we can conclude that a heavy 500 gr poor Sd bullet will by nature of its heavier nature penetrate deeper, greater momentum, carried energy, than the high SD 6.5 Creeds 130 gr bullet.

Correct?

Generally, it should be the case, but not always. Bullet speed, bullet construction,target medium etc play a role.

So if you look at it this way. All metal spheres have the same SD. If you drop a 1kg sphere or a 1g sphere from the same height onto a plank of wood, they will impact at the same speed, but the 1kg metal sphere will do a lot more damage because it has a lot more energy to act on the wood. Hence a heavier bullet will do the same to the meat.

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THATS WHAT I WANTED _ NEEDED, could not format that myself. So we can conclude that a heavy 500 gr poor Sd bullet will by nature of its heavier nature penetrate deeper, greater momentum, carried energy, than the high SD 6.5 Creeds 130 gr bullet.

Correct?