MS / MP200 equivalents

From posts on other forums, I see that Lovex is popular for 9mm. Check the explosia website for loads. Find attached a burn rate chart is old, but still useful.

From posts on other forums, I see that Lovex is popular for 9mm. Check the explosia website for loads. Find attached a burn rate chart is old, but still useful.

Thanks [member=67]Tripodmvr[/member]. Is the relative burn rate the most important parameter to match if I want to achieve a similar pressure curve? I understand that the faster the burn rate the steeper the curve and according to some apparently knowledgeable people on cast bullets too steep a curve is the likely cause of my bullets stripping.

MS200 - shotgun propellant and fast burning
MP200 - pistol

Titegroup is close to S121 in burning rate and I think the rather abrupt pressure rise is what causes the tumbling.

Herewith Lovex info attached.

Thanks, I don't see the Lovex info though.

We have power down and the cell phone towers are battling. File was left behind.

You can try Unique. Works well in my 9mm's using 4.2gr behind 147gr CMJ's. Seems pretty close to MP200 to me.

You can try Unique. Works well in my 9mm's using 4.2gr behind 147gr CMJ's. Seems pretty close to MP200 to me.

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Yes Unique seems a less dramatic propellant.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

The powder should not make the bullets tumble.

If the problem is happening with cast only, not FMJ, then it's definitely not the powder.

Twist rule applies to handgun bullets also, more so because of the low velocity and stabilisation RPM.

What is the length of the lead bullet that tumbles, compared to the jacketed that does not tumble, and what is the barrel twist.

The powder should not make the bullets tumble.

If the problem is happening with cast only, not FMJ, then it's definitely not the powder.

Twist rule applies to handgun bullets also, more so because of the low velocity and stabilisation RPM.

What is the length of the lead bullet that tumbles, compared to the jacketed that does not tumble, and what is the barrel twist.

It is the powder without any doubt. I used exactly the same home brewed PC bullet and powder (MS200) recipe for years (20k odd rounds) in various 9mmP guns with perfect results. The tumbling, which results in a visible keyhole in approx 1 in 5 rounds, began from ammo made in the second half of a reloading session with everything but the powder and charge weight (S121) being exactly the same.

It occurs with fast the fast powders (S121 and Titegroup) but not with the slower ones (MS200 and MP200). This I have confirmed quite recently with samples of those provided to me by long suffering mates. What has been explained to me by a number of people with experience of the issue is that the peak pressure of the fast powders arrives quicker than the tensile strength of the lead or coating can accommodate and thus they strip the rifling. I never even had a hint of leading before with my PC bullets much less tumbling. It apparently doesn't happen with jacketed or CMJ because copper is substantially harder than PC and can therefore withstand the pressure peak without failing.

Makes sense to me based on my very extensive observations of a painfully large range of testing.

The skipping of the rifling is a bullet problem, if the problem doesn't happen with jacketed.

The slower powder is only compensating for the problem.

Your lead is too soft.

When I first loaded my own cast PC bullets in .38 special, I was horrified at the shotgun pattern and jagged holes on the target. I put the handgun cast bullets on hold for a long time after that.

When I started casting for rifle, my first test was on a 375 H&H, and I also got the shotgun pattern. I then paid more attention to the lead, increased the hardness, re-tested in other rifles, and found that 16BHN was good for 2100 fps in the big bores. I shot that lead hardness in my 500 Jeffery at just over 2200 fps last week, the holes in the paper were cookie cutter.

By the time I started experimenting with lead in rifles, all my pistol CMJ were finished, and I used that same lead hardness to cast 9mm, .38 and .44.

None of them keyhole, not even the .44 which is .44 special with 13 grains from an ancient tin of S241 through a 8" barrel.

I did find that the lead hardness increased a few points a month after casting to the 16 BHN.

The skipping of the rifling is a bullet problem, if the problem doesn't happen with jacketed.

The slower powder is only compensating for the problem.

Your lead is too soft.

When I first loaded my own cast PC bullets in .38 special, I was horrified at the shotgun pattern and jagged holes on the target. I put the handgun cast bullets on hold for a long time after that.

When I started casting for rifle, my first test was on a 375 H&H, and I also got the shotgun pattern. I then paid more attention to the lead, increased the hardness, re-tested in other rifles, and found that 16BHN was good for 2100 fps in the big bores. I shot that lead hardness in my 500 Jeffery at just over 2200 fps last week, the holes in the paper were cookie cutter.

By the time I started experimenting with lead in rifles, all my pistol CMJ were finished, and I used that same lead hardness to cast 9mm, .38 and .44.

None of them keyhole, not even the .44 which is .44 special with 13 grains from an ancient tin of S241 through a 8" barrel.

I did find that the lead hardness increased a few points a month after casting to the 16 BHN.

Interesting interpretation given that there is no problem if I use a slower powder. If the root cause is too soft a bullet how do you explain the fact that I've shot the same alloy (literally from the same melt) with not a hint of leading and outstanding accuracy in a .270 Win at up to 2000fps? I also use it in 38 and 357 without issue.

Did a simulation in QL to see what the 4 propellants that I chose do with 115 PMP JHP in a 5 inch barrel. Loads adjusted to give 34K psi. Distance down barrel at peak pressure, barrel time (miliseconds) and calculated speed are recorded below.

MP200 5,4mm 0,468m/s 1313
MS200 5,4mm 0,477m/s 1289
S121 5,9mm 0,476m/s 1281
Lovex D036 5,0mm 0,464m/s 1323

It seems as though Lovex is the slowest burning and gives highest speed. The distance down the barrel of 5mm means it was the slowest accelerating projectile. S121 at nearly 6mm shows that the acceleration is about 20% faster and could explain the stripping. MP200 and MS200 are much of a muchness and both gave good results.

Did a simulation in QL to see what the 4 propellants that I chose do with 115 PMP JHP in a 5 inch barrel. Loads adjusted to give 34K psi. Distance down barrel at peak pressure, barrel time (miliseconds) and calculated speed are recorded below.

MP200 5,4mm 0,468m/s 1313
MS200 5,4mm 0,477m/s 1289
S121 5,9mm 0,476m/s 1281
Lovex D036 5,0mm 0,464m/s 1323

It seems as though Lovex is the slowest burning and gives highest speed. The distance down the barrel of 5mm means it was the slowest accelerating projectile. S121 at nearly 6mm shows that the acceleration is about 20% faster and could explain the stripping. MP200 and MS200 are much of a muchness and both gave good results.

Thanks [member=67]Tripodmvr[/member]. Very interesting.

The skipping of the rifling is a bullet problem, if the problem doesn't happen with jacketed.

The slower powder is only compensating for the problem.

Your lead is too soft.

When I first loaded my own cast PC bullets in .38 special, I was horrified at the shotgun pattern and jagged holes on the target. I put the handgun cast bullets on hold for a long time after that.

When I started casting for rifle, my first test was on a 375 H&H, and I also got the shotgun pattern. I then paid more attention to the lead, increased the hardness, re-tested in other rifles, and found that 16BHN was good for 2100 fps in the big bores. I shot that lead hardness in my 500 Jeffery at just over 2200 fps last week, the holes in the paper were cookie cutter.

By the time I started experimenting with lead in rifles, all my pistol CMJ were finished, and I used that same lead hardness to cast 9mm, .38 and .44.

None of them keyhole, not even the .44 which is .44 special with 13 grains from an ancient tin of S241 through a 8" barrel.

I did find that the lead hardness increased a few points a month after casting to the 16 BHN.

Interesting interpretation given that there is no problem if I use a slower powder. If the root cause is too soft a bullet how do you explain the fact that I've shot the same alloy (literally from the same melt) with not a hint of leading and outstanding accuracy in a .270 Win at up to 2000fps? I also use it in 38 and 357 without issue.

I'm guessing that with those barrels, the grooves are deeper.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

I've used Vectan since 2019 with the Silver Rapids 147gr, 3.3gr powder for an average FPS between 850 to 860 through the Glock 19X and CZ SP-01 SHADOW.

I'm happy to donate you some powder if you want to run some tests and see if it can work for you :)

Vectan seems to be close to MP/S 200

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

I've used Vectan since 2019 with the Silver Rapids 147gr, 3.3gr powder for an average FPS between 850 to 860 through the Glock 19X and CZ SP-01 SHADOW.

I'm happy to donate you some powder if you want to run some tests and see if it can work for you :)

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

I can give you a small block of linotype, it'll make a handful of bullets for you to test.

That will tell you for sure if that barrel needs harder lead to shoot properly.

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

I can give you a small block of linotype, it'll make a handful of bullets for you to test.

That will tell you for sure if that barrel needs harder lead to shoot properly.

Thanks for the offer but I'm not keen on trying to address the issue with a different alloy for 9mmP only. Nearly 100% of my lead is recovered range scrap and I use it for everything from birdshot to rifle bullets. Will be much less PT and probably cheaper in the long run to find a propellant that works for that application. If Somchem ever starts making ms and mp again and it's cheaper than whatever I land on I'll probably lay in a rest of lifetime stock and be done with it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

I've used Vectan since 2019 with the Silver Rapids 147gr, 3.3gr powder for an average FPS between 850 to 860 through the Glock 19X and CZ SP-01 SHADOW.

I'm happy to donate you some powder if you want to run some tests and see if it can work for you :)

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

That's the one, I haven't personally seen any other Vectan variants on sale in South Africa, no need to buy it, I'm happy to donate enough powder for 100 rounds or so to you. :)

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

I've used Vectan since 2019 with the Silver Rapids 147gr, 3.3gr powder for an average FPS between 850 to 860 through the Glock 19X and CZ SP-01 SHADOW.

I'm happy to donate you some powder if you want to run some tests and see if it can work for you :)

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

That's the one, I haven't personally seen any other Vectan variants on sale in South Africa, no need to buy it, I'm happy to donate enough powder for 100 rounds or so to you. :)

Thanks, much appreciated. Will ping you to arrange. The stuff seems to be fairly freely available and isn't fiendishly expensive so if it works I'll be chuffed as hell.

That will tell you for sure if that barrel needs harder lead to shoot properly.

It's not a one barrel issue. The tumbling occurs in my three 9mmP pistols and in two belonging to friends. Exactly the same bullets work perfectly in 38 fired from my 357 revolver and a 158gr bullet of the same alloy works fine at 1350fps in the 357.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have also been referred to Vectan Ba9 1/2 so will give that a whirl too if it's available.

I've used Vectan since 2019 with the Silver Rapids 147gr, 3.3gr powder for an average FPS between 850 to 860 through the Glock 19X and CZ SP-01 SHADOW.

I'm happy to donate you some powder if you want to run some tests and see if it can work for you :)

Thanks for the offer snek. Is it the 9.5? If so I would like to buy enough off you to load 50 rounds or so at starting charge.

That's the one, I haven't personally seen any other Vectan variants on sale in South Africa, no need to buy it, I'm happy to donate enough powder for 100 rounds or so to you. :)

Thanks, much appreciated. Will ping you to arrange. The stuff seems to be fairly freely available and isn't fiendishly expensive so if it works I'll be chuffed as hell.

Back in 2019 it was going for around R750-00 for the 500G "tin", not so much anymore :'( :'( :'(

I might be wrong, but as far as I know Hodgdon CFE Pistol is about the same price as the Vectan now, and yes it's only 454 grams instead of 500 grams as the Vectan, and I believe, Hodgdon CFE Pistol is also very close to Somchem MP200.

It's not a one barrel issue. The tumbling occurs in my three 9mmP pistols and in two belonging to friends. Exactly the same bullets work perfectly in 38 fired from my 357 revolver and a 158gr bullet of the same alloy works fine at 1350fps in the 357.

Linotype will tell you for sure if your assumption is correct.

There is no universal lead hardness that works in everything, lead bullets are tailored to the barrel they are shot in, which is why there are so many alloys / lubes / coatings / sizes per caliber. Otherwise there would just be one.

I still say all 5 of those 9mm pistols will have the same depth [ or lack of depth ] in the lands, which doesn't work with softer lead above a certain pressure.

Had a look and Vectan going for R1050/1150. Lovex seems to be in the same price range.

It's not a one barrel issue. The tumbling occurs in my three 9mmP pistols and in two belonging to friends. Exactly the same bullets work perfectly in 38 fired from my 357 revolver and a 158gr bullet of the same alloy works fine at 1350fps in the 357.

Linotype will tell you for sure if your assumption is correct.

There is no universal lead hardness that works in everything, lead bullets are tailored to the barrel they are shot in, which is why there are so many alloys / lubes / coatings / sizes per caliber. Otherwise there would just be one.

I still say all 5 of those 9mm pistols will have the same depth [ or lack of depth ] in the lands, which doesn't work with softer lead above a certain pressure.

Using a more expensive alloy for one calibre is not a viable or convenient option for me. Changing to a slower powder is an almost no cost fix and takes me back to a configuration I know works perfectly with none of the ballache

All is good in the universe again. Did some load dev with Vectan and with a comfortable margin over factor there wasn't a hint of tumbling. Shout out 60 Vectan charged rounds in total to be sure and they ran true. Put a mag full of the 121 charged ones through at the end and 5 of the 18 key holed at 10m.

Thanks a bunch for the powder to try [member=91]NoStepOnSnek88[/member]. I'll lay in a few bottles.

All is good in the universe again. Did some load dev with Vectan and with a comfortable margin over factor there wasn't a hint of tumbling. Shout out 60 Vectan charged rounds in total to be sure and they ran true. Put a mag full of the 121 charged ones through at the end and 5 of the 18 key holed at 10m.

Thanks a bunch for the powder to try [member=91]NoStepOnSnek88[/member]. I'll lay in a few bottles.

Glad you found a replacement powder if Somchem isn't available.
Maybe I'll purchase your S121 from you after I've done some testing with the bottle I bought, but that might be awhile.