Good evening Folks, I couldn't get shotgun cases to fit, so I measured the chambers of our .410 SxS shotgun. It turns out the old lady has 2-inch chambers.
It means I would need to reload. Any advice on loads, shot etc?
Using proper cups is out of the question, simply due to the lack of space.
How do I proceed without blowing up anything?
The Somchem table shows 12.3gr - 15.4gr S265 behind 12g #6 shot, but this is for 65mm cases.
You are now at the point where you stop adding propellant and try modify the resistance met by the forward movement in the case. Try create more pressure build before release, you will hear the shot sound change from mushy to sharper crack. This seems to make better use of the loads available energy.
A bit more glue, two or a thicker wad, just to up a SLIGHTEST more pressure build up before the wad breaks loose.
You usually have a capacity issue in the .410 case, so once a load is found, get the most out of that energy available. - combustion efficiency created by pressure is all you have to work with.
Remember this is all on a miniscule scale of change for large effect results.
Feedback: the load works. I took a dove and a pigeon, but the range is very limited. Anything past 20 yards is shaky at best. A pigeon at 12 yards was a clean kil. I hit a pigeon in flight at roughly 15 yards and it flew off. The same shot with a 12 gauge would have delivered one very dead pigeon.
Feedback:
11gr of IMR4227 and 150gr #7 gives +- 900 fps.
Tomorrow we try 12gr with the same load.
That sounds like a pleasant and sensible load for an old gun.
We have all the pleasure!
Once the loads are sorted, I will get the kids onto clays. First stationary, and later moving. And then, we will hopefully get to doves and pigeons on sunflower fields.
The little shotgun is said to be good for small birds out to 20m with no 7 or 8 shot.
I think you have now superseded where I got to with the .410 reloading. I am so chuffed this gun went to you, I had a fondness for the particular gun I gave you.
I found things were good at 1150 fps abouts, after that "things" started to happen, little "red light" moments and sounds, just a feeling, just a "I have learnt to take note of" kinda things.
As posted on shotgunworld forum:
(I stuck to weighing in grains because it is what I have; S265 equals Win 296, 4227 and H110).
-10.0gr S265 & 140gr (5/16oz.) shot: 997fps
-10.0gr S265 & 145gr (1/3oz.) shot: 908fps
-10.0gr S265 & 150gr (3/8oz.) shot: 717fps
-11.0gr S265 & 140gr (5/16oz.) shot: 717fps
-11.0gr S265 & 145gr (1/3oz.) shot: 800fps
-11.0gr S265 & 150gr (3/8oz.) shot: 924fps
(Note: the double 717fps reading surprised me, but nothing looked out of place.)
These on a grid predicts that 12gr of powder and 150gr shot should deliver 1150fps, and 12.5gr should deliver 1200+fps.
I put up a rubber board (conveyor belt) at 10m, standing at a slight angle in case of rebounding shot. The shot penetrated the first layer of rubber and stuck.
Spread was clearly different for the two barrels. The unchoked barrel spread evenly over an A5-sized piece of paper; the choked barrel put the shot into 10cm (4 inches) circle.
From a German website, for 50mm cheddite hulls:
"
_Wad Gualandi H17
9g 2,4 mm Pb
vor 13 gr SP3, gebördelt mit Overshotcard (331 bar, 309m/s)
vor 14,5gr SP3, , gebördelt mit Overshotcard (525 bar, 331m/s)_ "
5/16oz lead with 13gr SP3 for 1013fps, or with 14.5gr SP3 for 1086fps.
I think patterning is useful as it gives you an reasonable mental picture of the shot column at known ranges which is especially useful with something you haven't shot much. I've seen vastly differing pattern results with small changes in load makeup. A particularly interesting one for me was when I used quenched range scrap shot that I graphite tumbled. An otherwise identical load had significantly tighter and denser patterns all the way out to 35m. Another one was when I changed from MS200 to S121 because of supply. I worked up a 121 load that gave me the same velocity and when i patterned it there was a big hole in the middle of the pattern.
Re slugs, my experience has been that if you have a non bore riding, i.e. sub calibre slug it will give slightly higher velocities for the same charge as an equal weight of 7.5 shot in a 12G. i have gifted many shooters Lee 1oz slugs to replace the shot in standard 28g 7.5 load with the crimp cut off and the shot replaced with the slug and all of them have loved them to bits.
Its the weight that must be moved that matters, be it birdshot or buckshot - I would think that some caution should be exercised with slugs and weight do to possible resistance offered by the barrel and bearing surface.
I know the method is primitive and unscientific, but you want a load that makes a bit of a crack, sharp bang, just past the mushy sound that's before that crack sound. Work up the charge, not the load till you find it, then you can lower charge raise load or vice se versa.
There is a sweet spot that just sounds like a shot fired and not a fart.
Chrony at 7 - 8 meter and whatever you do, put a good barrier at a 45 angle in front of chroni screen. I used my water meter cover ;D . The shield must be at an angle or the stray shot comes back at you and you must use wooden dowels if you used the sun screen.
Patterning - forget it, it comes out like it comes out.
The reloads are good for 20 m on living things, after that the penetration drops of like a cliff edge and you battle with wounded creatures, even with bigger shot.
Some more questions:
I have decided to use the brass cases, and prepared +- 60 of them.
Given that the little shotgun is 100 years old, and that I have no proven data to work with, I am wary of simply throwing a load together.
- How does one determine pressure in a cartridge with so little data to work with? Would a chrony suffice?
- Does the size of the shot make a difference, or is it weight only?
- Is there a magic speed for shotgun shells? Some folks have mentioned 1150-1200fps, because it gives proper spray for the shot.
- Is there an ideal distance to test the loads for proper spread?
I have decided to start with five loads, and to chrony them for a calculation if possible:
- 10.0gr S265 & 125gr shot
- 10.5gr S265 & 130gr shot
- 11.0gr S265 & 135gr shot
- 11.5gr S265 & 140gr shot
- 12.0gr S265 & 145gr shotAny other ideas?
I'd start at the bottom of the somchem data for 410/265. That is 12 grams of shot with propellant starting at 12.3 grains with max of 15.4 grains. Velocities are quoted at 993-1178 fps which sound more than reasonable for killing anything I can think of a 410 being used on.
I'd pattern at 15 and 25m initially and depending on results stretch it out from there in 5m increments to get a good feel for effectiveness. My gut says that patterns will open up swiftly and shot density will be very low much past 25m. I have never loaded a 410 and haven't shot one in well over 20 years so take all of the above for no more than the 2c its worth.
Some more questions:
I have decided to use the brass cases, and prepared +- 60 of them.
Given that the little shotgun is 100 years old, and that I have no proven data to work with, I am wary of simply throwing a load together.
- How does one determine pressure in a cartridge with so little data to work with? Would a chrony suffice?
- Does the size of the shot make a difference, or is it weight only?
- Is there a magic speed for shotgun shells? Some folks have mentioned 1150-1200fps, because it gives proper spray for the shot.
- Is there an ideal distance to test the loads for proper spread?
I have decided to start with five loads, and to chrony them for a calculation if possible:
- 10.0gr S265 & 125gr shot
- 10.5gr S265 & 130gr shot
- 11.0gr S265 & 135gr shot
- 11.5gr S265 & 140gr shot
- 12.0gr S265 & 145gr shot
Any other ideas?
Further feedback:
Please ensure that brass cases are annealed 2/3 back. I annealed only the front 1/3 and the cases did not from properly. I need to redo half of them.
Edit: I doubt that the 308 die will work with regular 2½ and 3" shells.
888888888888888888
Which is likely why its not common knowledge - BUT ! cut top off the die and I am sure it will be just fine.
I have an old, damaged 300 H&H die which have an appointment with the grinder and belt sander.
If I can cut and grind it to a proper 11.5mm opening, it should work like a charm.
Feedback: the 308 Win FL-die works like a charm!
Cut back the brass cases to 51mm, anneal them slightly, and form them in the 308 die.
They fit tightly into the .410 chambers - I am sure they will fireform precisely.
Feedback: the 308 Win FL-die works like a charm!
Cut back the brass cases to 51mm, anneal them slightly, and form them in the 308 die.
They fit tightly into the .410 chambers - I am sure they will fireform precisely.
***************************
That is just amazing, no other mention of that ever read anywhere.
I AM IMPRESSED>
Likewise, first time I have heard of it and I spent a lot of time googling 410 reloading options. You heard it here first Folks!
Feedback: the 308 Win FL-die works like a charm!
Cut back the brass cases to 51mm, anneal them slightly, and form them in the 308 die.
They fit tightly into the .410 chambers - I am sure they will fireform precisely.
***************************
That is just amazing, no other mention of that ever read anywhere.
I AM IMPRESSED>
Feedback: the 308 Win FL-die works like a charm!
Cut back the brass cases to 51mm, anneal them slightly, and form them in the 308 die.
They fit tightly into the .410 chambers - I am sure they will fireform precisely.
Good Evening Folks,
I need to test a thought: would it be possible to resize .410 2-inch cases with a 308 sizing die?
The .410 2" case falls from .470" to .455" over 2 inches.
The 308 falls from .4709" to .4539" over 1.56".
Theoretically, the first 1.5" should be pressed to almost/slightly below factory specs, or not?
I would just do it and see what happens............
Good Evening Folks,
I need to test a thought: would it be possible to resize .410 2-inch cases with a 308 sizing die?
The .410 2" case falls from .470" to .455" over 2 inches.
The 308 falls from .4709" to .4539" over 1.56".
Theoretically, the first 1.5" should be pressed to almost/slightly below factory specs, or not?
I roll crimp all my slug and buck 12g loads and they work well. For a 410 roll crimper speak to Kevin at Bushmunki - kevin@bushmunki.co.za
I am not yet sure what works better: roll crimping a plastic case, or glueing a brass case.
Good evening Folks, I have had a delightful day - partially with the family and partially on research for the .410 2-inch.
Dr Google is your friend, and I spoke to an experienced 410 2-inch reloader. He basically confirmed what Dr Google told me.
In practical terms it boils down to the following basics, especially for our SA situation:
Below is a selection of comments, ideas, suggestions etc which I collected from the internet regarding 410 2-inch reloading:
[30-06 11:01]: Originally the .410 was designed to fire a 2 in. cartridge loaded with approximately 5/16 oz. of shot.
[30-06 11:33]: Here I’d suggest the ideal solution is the Eley Hawk two-inch .410, which delivers a 9gm payload of No. 6 shot.” ~ Shooting Times
Loaded with a very special SSB+ 150 powder the 2” cartridge is ideal for use on ground game and vermin
[30-06 11:42]: Originally introduced in the 1890s, as a 2inch cartridge with a 3/8th ounce charge of shot, it became more popular with the introduction of a 21/2" cartridge with a 1/2 ounce and, in 1924, the 3" cartridge with 3/4 ounce of shot
[30-06 11:53]: British standard 2" load is 5/16th. ounce of shot
[30-06 12:02]: Historically the 2-inch .410-bore carried 3/10 ounce of shot, but U.S. Cartridge Co. put 3/8 ounce in a 2-inch brass case. That 3/8 ounce was the original 2 1/2 inch paper case load.
[30-06 12:04]: ole' smith at gander mtn. said them "antique" ones had tighter chambers and bores to provide better seal against gases getting past the wad. shotgun ammo sucked back in those days.
[30-06 12:05]: I don't think you'll have room for any kind of shot cup. I'd suggest using 296(dense) powder and a cardboard over powder wad, that's all.
[30-06 12:06]: I've been using 13.8 grains of 296 in AA casas for many years. The recommemded 14 grains goes over 1200 fps. I prefer 1150 or thereabouts, with all my loads.
[30-06 12:08]: An old Lyman manual I have for the 2½" .410 with 3/8oz shot recommended 7grs "Infallible" or 10grs "Herco". Infallible was a powder virtually identical to "Unique". In the 2" case using the cut-back plastic wads per 8-bores recommendation I would think 6grs Unique or 8 grs Herco would be very efficient loads for the 3/8oz load. Due to the small dia of the bore Load Density (shot wt/bore area) changes rapidly with only small changes of weight. I would not really think the very slow ".410 Powders" would necessarily be the most desirable for only 3/8oz charges. This Unique loading is often quoted as a suitable charge for loading in .45 Colt case for firing from the SAA incidently.
[30-06 12:54]: I use any standard pressure .44-40 charge which is safe for a 215-grain lead bullet in the Winchester 1873 or Colt SA Frontier Six Shooter, typically 6 grains of Bullseye, 7 grains of Unique, 8 grains of Herco, 15 grains of #2400 or 17 grains of 4227 using a Buffalo Arms card over the powder and a 3/8" waxed fiber cushion wad with 1/2oz. of shot. I use an overshot card for a .44 cal. , roll crimp and seal with brushing lacquer.
[30-06 13:02]: Appropriate powders are "slow burning" by shotgun standards, and some specialty .410 loads use propellants usually reserved for the larger shotgun shells. Actually, the judicious .410 handloader could get by with just Winchester 296, Hodgdon H110, and Alliant 2400. One or the other of this trio will work in just about any case with any load.
[30-06 13:09]: The .410's metier is skeet shooting, and the vast majority of 2.5-inch shells are loaded with No. 9 shot at about 1,200 fps. Such ammo is easy to duplicate.
[30-06 13:24]: The 21/2-inch field loads offered by several companies with Nos. 4, 6 and 71/2 shot are poor choices for hunting due to the low pellet count. Clay target loads of the same length such as the Remington STS, Federal Gold Medal and Winchester AA loaded with No. 81/2 or 9 shot are deadly on woodcock in the timber and quail on preserves.
For those two inch chambers, this is the ONLY way to go. Collect all the old Berden throw aways stuff, pay once or do it yourself, do the primer pockets and you have cases for a 100 reloads per case.
You can anneal the whole body every 6-7 reloads.
I did give you some brass cases from .303
If I had a 410 that needed feeding I'd be interested in going down the 303 brass conversion route rather than messing about with used 410 hulls.
Its actually not so daunting after a few tries, take the entry load for the 2.5 an test that with a lighter load, then up the load weight. I do not know how to explain, but you get a feel for it rather quickly, the upper end of the loads that is, the bottom side you just go in really low. I gave you cork for wads, you work out your loads, fill case, measure the excess space and fill that with cork. You then break down the cartridge and weigh the cork, the cork weight is then removed from the load weight.
It is easier to start with a higher charge and lighter load than it is to have a heavier load and trying to load up to its levels. I think I gave you a book of loads, they all a bit short in fill length and needed spacing to fill case. Take my loads drop 15 % for own get the feeling of it all.
Have you Googled to see if there's any info eg from USA, which would give you a starting point for charge and shot weight. Substitute closest locally available equivalent powder with a minimum load and start testing.........
What cases do you have? I'm wondering if you could use 44Mag cases with those plastic snakeshot capsules. I've also got some fired .410 cases, mostly 3" but also some 65mm and probably some 2" if you need. You could always trim the longer ones to length.
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